Curse

Patccmoi · Feb 18, 2007, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Atm, i know it's not a very popular skill, but there's something that bugs me with it and it's that it's very strong against people bringing 1-3 spirits in a balanced setup and not that useful against a spirit spammer team (cause you'd do nothing else but Unnatural spirit all game).

A friend got a suggestion that i think would make the signet much more interesting, being a hard counter to mass spirit spamming (think Rt spikes that bring like 10+ spirits) while being not as hard counter to 1-2 spirits.

Here's the idea:

Unnatural Signet
1/45

Target foe takes 5...29..37 damage + 5..17..22 damage per enemy summoned creature within earshot of your target (max 200 damage). If that foe was a summoned creature this Signet does double damage and recharges instantly.

Basically, the damage against a single spirit would be in the 60-70 damage range, which is fine. Against spirit spamming though like Rt spikes, it would be able to 1 shot spirits doing 300-400 damage (the max 200 being before the 2 x damage). Could also be good control against MMs (more for HA) by 1 shot killing Minions.

Makes the skill much more interesting as it can be a 1 skill counter to spirit spamming gimmick but it would not be as powerful against builds just wanting to include 1-3 spirits because if Rts are to be part of balanced builds (and yes, they can be) that's the kind of thing they'd need to be functional, but the current Unnatural Signet if it happens to be on the other team kills them incredibly fast. It might be a wasted slot in some games, but just like hex removals are a wasted slot sometimes.

Basically, i'd like to see the skill hurting the gimmicks more than it hurts what i'd consider a more 'balanced' option of spirits.

twicky_kid · Feb 18, 2007, 05:51 AM // 05:51

You would be removing spirits and minions from pvp play all together with that affect and for 0 energy.

I don't think that is a good idea at all.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 18, 2007, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

You would be removing spirits and minions from pvp play all together with that affect and for 0 energy.

I don't think that is a good idea at all.

You would only be doing that if the sig actually had a good effect without spirits around. However, it doesn't so it is only going to see play when there are a lot of spirits in the metagame. Therefore, it would turn into the regular cycle, spirits become popular->unnatural sig is taken as a counter->spirits die out->unnatural signet dies out because it is useless->spirits become popular.

In fact, unless there is a dominating spirit build (cough rit spike cough) that just dominates the metagame, this won't see play at all, because it simply has no versatility, the only point of it is to kill spirits, nothing else.

Scrimbul · Feb 18, 2007, 06:18 AM // 06:18

There is a counter to spirit spikers.

It's called Spiritual Pain.

Unnatural Signet is just Spiritual Pain's crappy little brother alternative. If you want to obliterate a spiritual fortress, you're going to have to actually spend energy.

You also don't need a skill that deals with minions the same as spirits because the solution to an MM build is to kill the MM. MM builds are sturdy due to dark bond, but they can't stay alive forever. Kill their monk and use a sin or elementalist or enchant stripping, and they will go down also. Verata's Aura is also a single skill counter to MM's but is signifigantly less flexible to bring than comparing it to SP or US.

Riotgear · Feb 18, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Target foe takes (blah) damage. If this skill hits a spirit, (one or two) spirits in the area take (blah) damage and this skill recharges instantly.

Just a thought.

Still doesn't fix the problem of it being crap if you're not facing a spirit-based team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrimbul

There is a counter to spirit spikers.

It's called Spiritual Pain.

Spending 40 energy to nuke one spirit cluster down is obviously worth it.

Quote:

You also don't need a skill that deals with minions the same as spirits because the solution to an MM build is to kill the MM. MM builds are sturdy due to dark bond, but they can't stay alive forever.

Or just kill the minions before they have a chance to make an army out of them. Unless I'm misunderstanding the order at which things apply, you could also just beat on the necro even with Dark Bond because SB/PS won't kick in and their minions will take tons of damage.

Scrimbul · Feb 18, 2007, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Spending 40 energy to nuke one spirit cluster down is obviously worth it.

We're talking 5-10+ spirits here, my friend.

Hell yes 40 energy is worth destroying a rit spiker team's usefulness for roughly the next 15-30 seconds while you quickly try to push and mow 2 or 3 of them down. Even if you don't hit them all, you'll hit the majority depending on positioning, and that's important. This skill in it's original incarnation removed, with a bloody vengeance, ritualist spirit spammers from RA/TA and I have a pretty good feeling it still can if you're willing to spend the energy on a dom mesmer or use GoLE.

There is no reason Unnatural Signet needs that kind of power for no energy.

Everything else you said is true when you have no skill-based counters. They are just not always possible (coming on a horde already set up in AB, etc.)

Patccmoi · Feb 18, 2007, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

You would be removing spirits and minions from pvp play all together with that affect and for 0 energy.

I don't think that is a good idea at all.

Hrm, not really. Unless you didn't read the description, the skill gets significantly weaker as there's less and less spirits or minions within earshot of your target. If there's only 3 spirits left it does the same damage as it does now. If there's 2 spirits left, it does less than it does now. If there's 1 spirit left, its damage is actually pretty weak. It's very strong when there's 10 spirits on the other team, and i don't see a problem with that.

I guess i must be biased cause i like using 2-3 spirits in a balanced setup rather than a full spirit spam team build, and the skill is just extremely strong against that while i'd rather see it useful against mindless spirit spamming. Every time i face it it's nearly hopeless to keep a spirit up. Guess i'll try to include more signet interrupts when i want to run low spirits.

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 18, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

I think a skill that only kills spirits is too narrow to see serious play. It needs to be good enough at killing players that it's worth bringing against non-spirit teams if it's going to get a slot on the cramped bar of a Domination mesmer. When it hits spirits though, it should get some pretty significant boosts to the effect.

I'm not entirely sure how to do that though. I'd rather see a disruption-based skill then yet another spike/damage skill.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 18, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I'm not entirely sure how to do that though. I'd rather see a disruption-based skill then yet another spike/damage skill.

Interrupt target foe, if you interrupt a binding ritual, nearby spirits take [something] damage

Or Interrupt target foe, if you interrupt a binding ritual this skill instantly recharges. <-- if you never want to see spirits ever used again

Riotgear · Feb 18, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrimbul

We're talking 5-10+ spirits here, my friend.

SP has Nearby radius, there is no way in hell you are hitting 5 spirits with it, and I'd be amazed if a team was even running 10. Nearby against anything but a dumb rit who summons everything at the same spot will hit 3 at most. Targetting an actual person with it is risky because if you misjudge their distance, you get stuck with a crappy single-target hit and a huge recharge.

If you want to blast a spirit nest, just use an actual nuker for it.

Quote:

This skill in it's original incarnation removed, with a bloody vengeance

Because the old one was Obsidian Flame, with splash, in a line that practically defines utility. Actually it's worse than Flame, because Flame doesn't have a followup like WD.

Quote:

ritualist spirit spammers from RA/TA and I have a pretty good feeling it still can if you're willing to spend the energy on a dom mesmer or use GoLE.

In RA/TA, you just interrupt the binding rituals. If you're running an RA build without an interrupt, then you and your teammates need to pressure the rit early. If you can't do that, well, you lost because of a dumb team, welcome to RA.

Quote:

Everything else you said is true when you have no skill-based counters. They are just not always possible (coming on a horde already set up in AB, etc.)

Nobody spams spirits in AB. The ones that do don't get far because a mob of 8 people > one spirit nest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Interrupt target foe, if that foe was summoning a creature, nearby summoned creatures take [something] damage

I kind of like the idea. It does need to affect nature rituals though. Minion summons too, because I hate minions. :P

Divineshadows · Feb 18, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Or Interrupt target foe, if you interrupt a binding ritual this skill instantly recharges. <-- if you never want to see spirits ever used again

Now that's a useful skill. What would be the default recharge if you don't interrupt a spirit with it? Same as it is now?

Patccmoi · Feb 18, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Now that's a useful skill. What would be the default recharge if you don' interrupt a spirit with it? Same as it is now?

you're kidding right? This isn't just useful, it's honestly making spirits absolutely unusable. It's not like spirits are anything hard to interrupt and they have huge cooldown.

Spirits can already be took out by anything that deals any kind of damage. I don't see why they should have such hard counter on top.

Vermilion · Feb 18, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Maybe have it recharge 50% faster if it interrupts a binding ritual. Instant recharge seems a little too much wtfpwn spirits, but having to overextend to kill/interrupt spirits might make it balanced, Idk. Anyway keep the recharge, its more or less in line with the other interrupt sigs. Maybe 20sec, because it doesnt have as much the benefit of the others. -.-

Looking at the skill again, I don't know why you can't just increase the damage a little and lower the recharge slightly, so its more like SP without the FC and such.

Patccmoi · Feb 18, 2007, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion

Maybe have it recharge 50% faster if it interrupts a binding ritual. Instant recharge seems a little too much wtfpwn spirits, but having to overextend to kill/interrupt spirits might make it balanced, Idk. Anyway keep the recharge, its more or less in line with the other interrupt sigs. Maybe 20sec, because it doesnt have as much the benefit of the others. -.-

That'd make more sense.

Something like .25s activation, 30s recharge, recharge twice as fast if it interrupts a spirit would be nice. Could deal some minor damage on top but doesn't matter much.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 18, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Okay, how about:

Interrupt target foe. If target foes is using a binding ritual or nature ritual, this skill recharges twice as fast.

.24 cast 20 recharge

Patccmoi · Feb 18, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Okay, how about:

Interrupt target foe. If target foes is using a binding ritual or nature ritual, this skill recharges twice as fast.

.24 cast 20 recharge

I think that 20s recharge is too fast for an all-skill signet interrupt. Sig of Disruption is 20s but it's conditional to interrupt all skill (foe must be hexed). Then again it might not change much in the end. 20, 25 or 30s recharge could likely do.

suiraCLAW · Feb 18, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

I think that 20s recharge is too fast for an all-skill signet interrupt. Sig of Disruption is 20s but it's conditional to interrupt all skill (foe must be hexed). Then again it might not change much in the end. 20, 25 or 30s recharge could likely do.

What about:

Unnatural signet : 0.25 cast / 10 sec recharge

Target foe is interrupted (and all summoned creatures in the area take 10...60 damage). If that foe wasn't casting a binding or natural ritual, this skill is disabled for an additional 25 seconds.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 18, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

What about:

Unnatural signet : 0.25 cast / 10 sec recharge

Target foe is interrupted (and all summoned creatures in the area take 10...60 damage). If that foe wasn't casting a binding or natural ritual, this skill is disabled for an additional 25 seconds.

It's basically the same idea, except with a 35 sec recharge rather than 20-30.

I also don't know about combining the two things (summoned creatures take damage + faster interrupt), would that be a little bit too much?

Patccmoi · Feb 18, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

It's basically the same idea, except with a 35 sec recharge rather than 20-30.

I also don't know about combining the two things (summoned creatures take damage + faster interrupt), would that be a little bit too much?

Actually his version would allow for a 5s recharge interrupt on binding rituals with MoI, but wouldn't allow to reduce its recharge to interrupt something else since it's disabled and not recharging. But i don't like it much cause 5s recharge potentially is just way too good for a signet interrupt on Binding Rituals.

If you put it 20s but recharge twice as fast if you interrupt a binding ritual, then MoI can't help it since a skill recharge is capped at 50%. At best MoI would allow you to have a 10s recharge signet interrupt against everything, but it'd still be 10s recharge if you hit a binding ritual.

I don't think the damage would actually change anything anyway. 60 damage to spirits is like nothing, you get that with 1 attack. Basically spirits die easily if they're focused and otherwise small damage hardly matters cause it won't finish them unless it hits repeatedly (and it's not like damage from an interrupt will hurt them that often).

TheOneMephisto · Feb 18, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

If you put it 20s but recharge twice as fast if you interrupt a binding ritual, then MoI can't help it since a skill recharge is capped at 50%. At best MoI would allow you to have a 10s recharge signet interrupt against everything, but it'd still be 10s recharge if you hit a binding ritual.

Forgot about interaction with MoI, yea, at a 20 sec recharge this would be a little too much if someone is running like humility and MoI already.

Put it at a 25-30 sec recharge at the least then, considering that it's an unconditional skill interrupt.

One thing is that we should have something that scales, as if this is unlinked I think it's a little too good to counter spirits on any class with a free secondary. Maybe:

Interrupt target foe. If you interrupt a binding ritual or nature ritual, this skill recharges 10...50% [0-12] faster (and deals 10-60 chaos damage to nearby foes).
.25 cast, 25 recharge

That would give it about an 11 sec recharge against spirits at 14 dom.

I also don't know about the last part. I kind of like it, as it would add a bit of a punishment aspect to standing around the spirit spammer. Also, since the damage is affected by armor, it will actually do some damage to spirits that are close by, at least reducing the number of times that a spirit can proc.